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Siman 273 - That the Kiddush [Must] Be in the Place of the Meal

 

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch material for the siman: from "Halacha-yomi" at www.Torah.org

Material from Rav Ostroff concerning this siman: Year 4 - Parshas Tazria

 

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Siman 273, se'if 1

 

(a) Is there a principle that one's Shabbos kiddush must be said where his meal is held? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): Yes.

          [Classic sources: Pesachim 101a (points1g,j1-k1).]

 

(b) Where could one move (with respect to the room in which he said the Shabbos kiddush) and have it still be considered one place? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): Certainly from one corner to another (even in a large hall); and some include even from [inside] the house to the courtyard as long as he can see the [original] place [from the new one].

          [Classic sources: Pesachim 101a (point1i) (that changing floors is not considered one place).]

 

(c) Is it acceptable to say the Shabbos kiddush with intent to move afterwards to a separate place where his meal will be held? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): Some hold that it is.

          The Rema writes (put simply): The Halacha does in fact follow that position.

          [Classic sources: Yerushalmi Berachos 49a [6:6] (pdf - SeePage256).]

 

(d) Is moving from the house (where one said the Shabbos kiddush) to the sukkah considered changing places? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Rema writes (put simply): [No;] it is like moving from one corner to another [i.e. as in question (b)].

          [Classic sources: Yerushalmi Berachos 49a [6:6] (pdf - SeePage256).]

 

 

Siman 273, se'if 2

 

What if one says the Shabbos kiddush with intent to stay where he was for his meal, and then decided to move? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): He must repeat kiddush in the place where he [now] intends to eat.

          [Classic sources: Pesachim 101a (point1j1).]

 

 

Siman 273, se'if 3

 

(a) What if one says the Shabbos kiddush without holding any meal? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): He was not yotzei his obligation of saying kiddush.

          [Classic sources: Pesachim 101a (point1k1) (Rabbah).]

 

(b) How important is it that one's Shabbos meal follow his kiddush immediately? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Rema writes (put simply): Either (1) he must have had that intent at the time of his kiddush, or at least (2) he must actually eat immediately.

 

 

Siman 273, se'if 4

 

(a) Is there a problem with the one saying the Shabbos kiddush for others planning to move elsewhere for his meal? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): No, because for them it is "the place of the meal". [He is not doing his Mitzvah of kiddush now. This in turn means that] they must not know [how to say kiddush, or else he could not say a bracha for them in which he himself does not participate].

          [Classic sources: Pesachim 101a (points1e-g) ("why in shul acc. to Shmuel" - until "shmuel leshitaso".]

 

(b) Is it necessary that one saying the Shabbos evening kiddush for others must drink from the "wine"? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): No, because even though the bracha over wine generally may not be said by someone who will not drink from it himself, this "boray p'ri haGafen" takes on the characteristic of the bracha of kiddush itself (which can be said for others without participating oneself since it is a pure Mitzvah bracha) since it is obligatory for kiddush. In fact, if he is going elsewhere to eat - he cannot drink, since it is before his own kiddush.

          [Classic sources: Rosh HaShanah 29a-b (points4c-e).]

 

(c) Does this leniency [i.e. the combination of questions (a) and (b)] also apply to saying the Shabbos day kiddush for others? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Rema writes (put simply): Yes.

 

 

Siman 273, se'if 5

 

What constitutes a meal with respect to requirement that the Shabbos kiddush be in its place? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): The Gaonim include even "a little something" (of bread) - or a cup of "wine" - which [is enough that it] requires [saying] a bracha [afterwarwards] (i.e. and one may then complete his meal elsewhere), but not fruit.

          The Rema writes (put simply): According to that, someone performing a circumcision on Shabbos morning (or the "sandak") can drink the cup of wine [over which the brachos are said (although it is not done "in the place of" one's main meal)] as long as the full measure [mentioned above] is drunk, but the minhag is to give the cup to a child.

 

 

Siman 273, se'if 6

 

Does one's intent to cause others listening in a different house to be yotzei their obligation (through his saying the Shabbos kiddush) work? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): Yes (if they also intend to be yotzei), because with their table set before them - that is a proper fulfillment of [kiddush being] "in the place of the meal."

 

 

Siman 273, se'if 7

 

Is it a requirement of the Shabbos evening kiddush that it be said where there is candle light? [Request "Halacha Sources" discussion]

          The Shulchan Aruch writes (put simply): Some say so; however, the position that holds otherwise (and says that one who enjoys more the courtyard air - or the like - says kiddush and eats there though the candle is not visible, for the commandment of the [use of] candles was for [the purpose of causing] pleasure and not pain) is [more] reasonable.

          [Classic sources: See Pesachim 101a (point1k1).]